The 3 principles to a Happy Life feat. Ankush Jain

Ankush Jain00:00:00 - 00:00:12
This all stems from misunderstandings. Right? This stems from thinking, I I can't let any money go. Money is really important. It's it's scarce, and I've gotta hold on to every single client.
Wayne Herring00:00:14 - 00:00:31
Welcome to the Business Builder test, where we help business builders grow leadership skills and wisdom and stay grounded through business builder hero stories. So let's get after Ankush, welcome to our Business Builder Camp expert interview series. It's really good to be with you today and have this conversation.
Ankush Jain00:00:32 - 00:00:35
Thanks for having me. Yeah. I'm I'm looking forward to the conversation.
Wayne Herring00:00:36 - 00:01:36
Great. Hey. So business builders, one of the things that I work to do in my community is share with you the experts who I come across, and those experts in my world are are quite varied. So there's business experts like murders and acquisition experts who I meet, people who are Experts in sales systems or accounting systems, but I also have a lot of, people That I come across through my coaching, instruction and work that I do. And I'm really happy to have Ankush with us today because he's somebody I met Through a coach of mine, Steve Chandler, who many of you have heard me talk about Steve Chandler and refer to Steve's books and and share those resources with you. And Ankush is joining us today from the countryside, of England. And Ankush is a practitioner of, a coaching methodology. Maybe that's not the right word methodology.
Wayne Herring00:01:36 - 00:02:41
He'll talk about that a little bit, called 3 principles. And so he's gonna speak to us about how three principles have have changed his life and How we might use it to look inside a little bit. Anakush is also the author of a book called Sweet Sharing, And this book is a a a piece that he's very vulnerable and talks about the journey that he's gone on internally. And I got a copy of that book when I was studying with Steve Chandler, and then I read it, morning by morning, 1 chapter at a time, and it was very impactful And caused some fruitful journaling sessions for me. So I will talk about a few chapters in the book. And the other thing about, Ankush says he runs 2 very successful groups. 1 group for high performing men, on Facebook, And then also one for coaches who are pursuing these 3 principles in their work. He does some men's retreats, immersive experience, And also has a thriving 1 on 1 practice.
Wayne Herring00:02:41 - 00:02:51
So I'm so glad to to bring you Ankush. So, Ankush, maybe you just wanna a bridge off of that. And and how did I do on your intro?
Ankush Jain00:02:51 - 00:03:33
Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for that. It's always really interesting to hear people introduced me and and and kind of our connections. And, you know, so interesting because I I love that, you know, you are you've got a group for a community of people who are really interested in business because I'm really interested in that too. So whilst my background has been in, coaching, and that's kinda how we met and and psychology. I think one of the things that we what we both do is is work with kind of real people. You know, and, and so I'm excited to to kinda share how what it is that I've kinda been learning, how that applies to business because I didn't used to see that.
Ankush Jain00:03:33 - 00:03:57
You know? Before, to me, it was like when I'd hear people talk about the mind or, you know, spirituality reality or meditation or, I don't know, some like, some of that stuff. I'd put it in, like, one little box. And, like, that's kinda nice to know, but that's more of a personal journey. And then there's kind of real business tough. So, yeah, I'm glad that you've brought me on, and maybe we can talk about how to bridge those 2 things and make it really practical for people watching this.
Wayne Herring00:03:58 - 00:04:48
Great. And I'm gonna I'm gonna share something with those of you who are watching. Ankush and I were Speaking for a minute before we got started, and we were talking about how, well, we're talking about how you moved to the country and there's some spiders there, and you really love it, but the Spiders were unanticipated, kind of annoyance and and and that yeah. I live in the country, so we've got lots of spiders. We also talked very quickly about, you you said it'll be interesting to talk to my community because I take people on hunting trips or I've done that. We we don't always do that, But we've done that. I also I have people too that are not interested in in hunting or those things, but they are interested in alpine adventure and, climbing and and hiking and and things like that. But we chat about that for a moment, and I said I'm in my dad's house.
Wayne Herring00:04:48 - 00:05:52
So I I kinda I turned the camera because my dad has these, like a a bear, a stuffed bear and all these things. So we are we are, you know, in some sense, like, we're we're different, have different backgrounds, but yet I really, I've learned so much from you, which which speaks to me about how we we can all learn from each other. So my guys, a a lot of the you come from a corporate world too. A lot of the people I'm working with are small business owners kinda, in the trenches and and going, and and and they're they're men. And and a lot of times, you know, they're men of American culture sure where it's like we think about 5 steps to grow sales or 5 steps to, you know, build our business, and we're Pickup trucks and go go go. So, you know, can you talk a little bit about what what are three principles. And how does that how does that apply to to all of us? And and maybe a bit the the type of business owners that I'm talking about, small companies, bootstrappers.
Ankush Jain00:05:54 - 00:06:01
So a so you you talked about it being a coaching methodology, and you said that that maybe that's not right. And, and you you were right about that.
Wayne Herring00:06:01 - 00:06:01
Yeah.
Ankush Jain00:06:01 - 00:06:55
So I like to explain it in this way. Right? So I never considered this, but if you take the world of psychology, right, like as a science, as a field. Right? I never really considered that the people in the field don't actually agree with each other. Right? So if we look at the world of psychology, you'll have some people who are kind of brought up in the Freudian tradition, and they'll say, like, you know, everything happens in your childhood, and this is what it's all about. Then you'll get someone who's like a positive psychologist, and they'll say, well, actually, yeah, that might be important, but it's not so important. And all that matters is kind of, you know, what you're doing going forward and and and and how optimism is more important than pessimism. You'll you'll get other people who'll say, well, actually, no. Really, this is down to genetics and about, you know, how how you view life is dependent on your genes.
Ankush Jain00:06:55 - 00:07:19
And there's a lot of basically different viewpoints, different theories. There there really isn't in a unified theory of psychology. Whereas if you look at other sciences, yes, they okay. There can be some disagreement about thing things. But, generally, people agree. Like, you don't tend to get a lot of people who say the periodic table is wrong in chemistry.
Wayne Herring00:07:20 - 00:07:20
Right.
Ankush Jain00:07:20 - 00:07:58
Right? You don't tend to get people who say, you know, gravity doesn't exist. Right, it's actually magical stardust or something. Right? Like, people tend to to agree. And in psychology, that's not the case. There's there's no agreed upon paradigm. And there was a guy called William James who was known as kind of the god father of psychology. And he said if we understand the fundamental principles of psychology, it will be the greatest discovery since fire. Right? And I I had never considered any of this stuff.
Ankush Jain00:07:58 - 00:08:42
Why would I? Most people don't. And so there was a a a chap in the seventies, off the West Coast of Canada who basically had an enlightenment experience. Right? And we hear about other people like that. Maybe I don't know if your community know people like Byron Katie or Eckhart Tolle. There were these people who seem to have some kind of spontaneous enlightenment experience. Right? So this guy did, but what's what was really interesting about him is, right, he he was kinda doing the enlightened man thing, whatever, but it's went to see him, and the psychologist went to see him and, doctor Roger Mills. And and he was like, everything that this guy was saying was the opposite what Roger knew as a psychologist.
Wayne Herring00:08:42 - 00:08:43
Right.
Ankush Jain00:08:43 - 00:09:12
And and he got so they kinda had this, not debate, but they were having this conversation. And this man, Sydney Banks, kinda said, well, you're wrong, and was just so confident with it and was like, and are you really happy? You know? And this guy went away and came back after a year and was like, my life has been completely changed. And not only that, but I'm helping my my patients. It's. And he started telling other psychologists. And then this other guy, doctor George Pransky, went along. And he was like, no. No.
Ankush Jain00:09:12 - 00:09:19
No. This is all wrong. You you know, no. You don't know what you're talking about. We're psychologists. We know. But on his way back, he goes for 2 weeks. He goes he was the happiest ever been.
Ankush Jain00:09:19 - 00:09:59
He went, what did the guy do to me? And so he went back. And slowly, slowly, psychologists started hanging around this this chap and learning from him. And he really saw that what he had seen, his enlightenment experience, really could help, people who were, you know, going to see therapists and traditional not psychologists and psychiatrists because it was you know, he had seen how the mind works, something that was universal across across every single person. And so in my book, I I really focus on, you know, one of those principles, which is the principle of thought.
Wayne Herring00:09:59 - 00:09:59
Mhmm.
Ankush Jain00:09:59 - 00:10:19
An a kind of a shorthand that that we, you know, we use is that everything that we're experiencing, our all experience of life. Right? Our feeling state is a reflection of our thinking moment to moment. And and when I mean thinking, that's shorthand for all mental activity.
Wayne Herring00:10:20 - 00:10:21
K. Right? And
Ankush Jain00:10:21 - 00:11:23
that's what we mean by you you may have heard the term inside out. What we're saying is our experience is generated via our thinking, via our mental activity. And that sounds like maybe a very, you know, innocent statement, but it's super powerful. It has huge wide reaching implications for people in their lives, in their businesses because we operate in a world where it looks to us like our feeling state has got at least something to do with stuff happening, the economy, right, the situation, the time of day. Right? Like, so many different things. And the the the reason I wrote my book is, look, there are colleagues of mine who have written books about the three principles. They probably explain it better than I do. But what I what I saw was there was a gap, and the gap was people weren't really seeing the implications of this seemingly innocent statement about our our feeling state.
Ankush Jain00:11:23 - 00:11:25
Right? They're like, okay. Great. So what?
Wayne Herring00:11:26 - 00:11:26
Mhmm.
Ankush Jain00:11:26 - 00:12:01
But it actually has huge, wide ranging implications. You know? Like, when I speak a business owner's, and and they may be looking for advice. Quite often, they know what the next step is for their business. They know already what it is that they need to do or that they should be doing or that they could be doing. Right? It's it's not a lack of information. So when we dive into that a little bit more, go, well, what's going on? Information. So when we dive into that a little bit more and go, well, what's going on? It's normally because there's there's some feelings coming up. Right? Like, that feels uncomfortable, that feels scary.
Ankush Jain00:12:01 - 00:12:47
Oh, I don't wanna put myself out there. Right? There there can be fear of rejection for for making proposals or, you know, whatever. And people interpret those feelings of of fear, of insecurity, of anxiety as don't go and do that as opposed to, no. That's just what you're thinking in that moment, and you don't always think that. It's it doesn't happen all the time, and it's not something that you know, that's not a good reflection. Right? And I use tons of ample because, you know, for anyone that's worked a job and maybe even for business owners. Right? I'll say if I'm talking to an audience, I'll say, how many times, has it happened in your life that you wake up in the morning and you don't have to go to work? Right? Has it ever happened? And everyone go, yeah. Like, it's happened at least once.
Ankush Jain00:12:47 - 00:13:18
You'll have the day you wake up. I can't be bothered to go into work. Sure. And I asked the audience, okay, how many times have you therefore stayed in bed all day? Right? And most people will say never. Right? Like, they and I'm like, well, why not? Why do you ignore and they know on some level that they're feeling in that moment is not something they need to listen to. Right? They just get on with it. And another example is going to the gym. How many people go to the gym regularly.
Ankush Jain00:13:18 - 00:13:23
Right? How many of you have thought about, I really don't wanna go to the gym today?
Wayne Herring00:13:23 - 00:13:24
Yeah.
Ankush Jain00:13:24 - 00:13:48
Right? And we go, and it's fine. And so we've got all these examples in our own lives of where a thought will come up. It gets reflected as a feeling, and we ignore it, and that turns out to be the right thing to do. And then we've got tons of areas in our life where, again, we know what it is to do. We know what the next step is. Right. But a feeling comes up, and we're like, oh, no. That means something.
Ankush Jain00:13:48 - 00:14:24
I shouldn't do this. Maybe I should hold back. Maybe I should whatever. Right? And uncovering that, that, making that more visible, you know, bringing that into our awareness can be a huge game changer for people. It a game changer for me, right, in terms of how we, you know, not like I said, live life, life, but also, you know, really practical things. How how do we how do we run our businesses? And in in the coaching world, again, I don't know if you've shared this with your with your community here before, but there's a saying. Right? How you do anything is how you do everything.
Wayne Herring00:14:24 - 00:14:25
Right.
Ankush Jain00:14:25 - 00:14:56
Right? And and this understanding, it applies to not only how you running your business. But how are how are you showing up you know, as a man, how are you showing up in your marriage? How are you showing up as a father? Right? Because it's everywhere. Right? And what I find with my clients is they may come to me for one thing and we start working on that, but then they'll start to me, oh, by the way, you know thought my marriage has improved. You know? Or I'm I'm really enjoying my my kids. I'm spending more time with my kids. You know? Like, yeah. Yeah. We we we kind of I'm making more money.
Ankush Jain00:14:56 - 00:15:06
Yeah. That was great. That's what I hired you for, but but this other stuff's happening. I don't know if that's got anything to do with what we're talking about, but I'm I'm just letting you know. I'm like, yeah. It does. It's got everything to do with it.
Wayne Herring00:15:06 - 00:15:21
For sure. So a couple things. One is you were talking about, Sydney Banks Who had who had this enlightenment, had this moment. I think it's interesting. I correct me if I'm wrong. Wasn't he a welder?
Ankush Jain00:15:22 - 00:15:27
He was a welder. Yes. He worked in a in a mill off the West Coast of Canada.
Wayne Herring00:15:28 - 00:16:12
So he was he was a A trades person working with his hands and working with a developed skill, and we sometimes think that, in the trades may not be deep thinkers or seek enlightenment, which is just that's more thinking and more, you know, judgment, whatever. But I just I find it, interesting and and applicable to my world because I work with a lot of folks that have more blue collarish businesses or we've We grew up. My I grew up. My grandfather was a coal miner, so I was around blue collar trades people all the time. So I just I think that's neat that Sid Banks was a welder, and he, like, was I don't know the whole story, but that he was enlightened and had a Had a new way of seeing the world and seeing his life and his place in it.
Ankush Jain00:16:13 - 00:16:38
Yeah. You know, absolutely. I I think, you know, he's a really great role model, and he used to say, like, don't don't make it about me. It's it's not about me. But but, you know, he's a great role model because he was just an ordinary guy. You know? He he didn't go to India. He didn't go around studying, you know, tons and tons of books and articles. He didn't meditate under a tree, you know, for decades.
Ankush Jain00:16:38 - 00:16:44
He was just an ordinary you know, and he's originally from Scotland. He was this Scottish guy. Right.
Wayne Herring00:16:44 - 00:16:46
A chapped I like that word, dude, chap.
Ankush Jain00:16:47 - 00:17:14
You know? Right? So he he would he would and he was just very ordinary. Just just just a normal as we'd say in England, a normal bloke. Right? So, and and he was convinced that what he'd seen can help ordinary people. You know? It wasn't like, okay. Now you need to go on this long journey. It it was just like really practical down to Earth, like, common sense.
Wayne Herring00:17:14 - 00:17:15
Mhmm.
Ankush Jain00:17:16 - 00:17:18
Right? That that's kind of what he was pointing to.
Wayne Herring00:17:18 - 00:18:04
Yeah. And So common sense and so simple, yet it could have such far reaching impacts and effects Inside and outside in our world, and and I think I think we're all ordinary. You know? I I I've been thinking about a lot with the with my, people that I work with. We're most of us are not going to be building a a startup like Facebook or Or Uber or something. And and they're just ordinary people too. Like, I we're we're all ordinary after all. But it is good to identify with, This isn't a person who went out to go seek this knowledge. It it came to them, and it's available For for all of us.
Wayne Herring00:18:04 - 00:18:30
So what I hear you saying is that there's, like, if I if I separate that this a bit, there's There's thought. There's mental activity. Any mental activity, like the way you just cooked that down for me. And then there's feelings that I I know what feelings are. And then there's my actions, and and the 3 can be they can be different. They they don't they don't have to they don't all blend together all the time.
Ankush Jain00:18:30 - 00:18:57
So so the mental activity and the feeling, that's kind of two sides of the same coin. K. Right. The so so the feeling is reflected as as the mental like, the mental activity kind of is the other side of the coin. It's a reflection, one of the other. Right? Yeah. The gap then is, like, what do we do with that information? And and you're right. So a lot of people take action not based on the feeling, but an interpretation of the feeling.
Wayne Herring00:18:58 - 00:18:59
Mhmm. Right.
Ankush Jain00:18:59 - 00:19:43
Right? So, a feeling comes up of, oh, no. You know, what am I doing in my business? You know, I can't I can't handle this. I can't turn this around. You know, I'm a loser or whatever or you know, I find a lot of lot of men that I work with secretly judge themselves pretty harshly. It's not it's not that something they talk about. It's not something they'd say openly. But but in conversations, I kind of will open up and say they they they they really think quite badly of themselves because of some thinking they have. And one one of the things I help point out to them is just because you've got some thinking about yourself has got nothing to do with who you are.
Ankush Jain00:19:44 - 00:20:22
It's got nothing to do with like, you know, you mentioned Steve Chandler. Steve and I recorded this short clip once about this distinction worthy versus useful. Right. And one of the things we talked about was how do you know that you're worthy? Right? Like, how can you measure that? Give me the measurement that shows like, what's your scale? Like, 1 to 10. Are you a 10 worthy? You will never know. You just have a feeling, and you put an interpretation of the feeling, but that's got nothing to do with anything. Right? And that doesn't just apply to worthiness. That applies to to kinda everything.
Ankush Jain00:20:22 - 00:20:51
Right? There's a lot of things like like confidence. We we sometimes talk about confidence as a fixed thing. Right? Mhmm. And it's not. I can feel really confident in an area where I'm competent. Right? And I might not feel confident in an area where I'm not competent. But, also, sometimes I can have false confidence. I can be very confident in an area where maybe I should be a little bit more held back, and there's other areas where I don't feel confident, but but but it's unwarranted.
Ankush Jain00:20:52 - 00:21:31
So all of these things are concepts. Right? But we kind of we we we like putting things in boxes. Mhmm. Right. And and that that really creates our our our experience of the world far more than we realize. Right? And if we take all of that stuff out right? Like, again, Steve one thing Steve talks about, as I'm sure you know, is is kind of like the robot. If we if we were robots and we had all the information we have, but we just didn't we took the feelings out of the way, we just be like, we just get so much more done. And it's not that feelings are a problem.
Ankush Jain00:21:31 - 00:21:53
It's that we're interpreting our feelings incorrectly. And and in my book, I call these misunderstandings. We've just got misunderstandings left, right, and center Mhmm. Which get in the way of us performing more more effectively, which get in the way of us making more money, which get in the way of us growing our businesses. Right? And I'm talking to myself as much as I'm talking to everyone else listening to this.
Wayne Herring00:21:53 - 00:22:47
Right. Always. You know, there's something I wonder how you would interpret this with with these concepts. I just I read something in a in a men's Facebook group, and it was a a member of the group was telling the other people About a 37 year old man who had been active in this I I'm not in it enough to know, but apparently, he had been active in this group, and he was a guy who, you know, had it all. Like, he had, a a beautiful family. He had a successful business, look, you know, probably would would appear, savings, money, So on and so forth. A good beard, which I can't grow, and he had committed suicide. And you were talking about how men have these things going on, but, like, we don't talk about it a whole lot.
Wayne Herring00:22:47 - 00:23:10
And I know, That that's certainly been true for me at times in the past, and then I went through some things that caused me to be more open about it. But but certainly it is hard for us to to talk about those things. So how do you see something like that? Like, somebody who had it all, But clearly, there was something going on. How does that fit in with
Ankush Jain00:23:11 - 00:23:51
One of the things I say to my clients is you can't get enough of what you don't need. Right? And often men, we operate in a way where we're trying to get something that we think is gonna gonna make us feel good or make us feel enough or or make us feel better than in someone else. Right? And for some men, it's it's money. For some men, it's women. For some men, it's both. Right? It it it can be and it can be various things that we're trying to accumulate. And sometimes, you know, the the saddest thing is someone gets all that tough. They get the stuff that they think is gonna make them happy, and they still feel incomplete.
Ankush Jain00:23:52 - 00:24:15
Yeah. And so the only answer is, like, right now, I'm still feeling like crap. And I've got this, and I've got this, and I've got this. And, unfortunately, for some of them, they they they turn to suicide. They turn to, like, well, I might as well just end it because I feel so bad inside. And they don't tell anyone because they're living this, kind of, you know, fake life where, like, hey. Look. Everything's perfect.
Ankush Jain00:24:15 - 00:24:38
Right? And we see this on social media all the time. Right? Presenting this this version of us. I got interviewed this funny thing. I got interviewed a couple of months ago by a men's coach. And he said, so tell me tell me, like, tell me something new and fresh. Tell me what you're learning. And, you know, I heard you you you know, because I recently became a father just at back end of last year. And I said, man, it's really tough.
Ankush Jain00:24:39 - 00:24:44
And he looked at me really surprised because because I'm a coach. You know? Like, I help people. That's what I do for a living. And he kind of expected
Wayne Herring00:24:44 - 00:24:45
me to together.
Ankush Jain00:24:45 - 00:25:11
Right? Like, he expected me to come out with, like, something, you know, really inspiring and motivational. And I went, no, dude. It's it's tough. It's been really tough. I totally, totally underestimated what it meant to be a dad and and the impact it had not only on on my my business and my life, but, like, my my relationship with my wife. It totally changed our relationship. And the funny thing is when I talk to other men about this, anyone else as a father, they go, oh, man. Me too.
Ankush Jain00:25:11 - 00:25:29
Oh, yeah. We went through that. It gets better. Don't worry. Right? And when I'm talking to to to men now who are first time fathers I spoke to a guy recently. He's a first father. He's kind of a few months after me, and I just you know, I probed. I asked a couple of questions, you know, like to and he's going through the same thing.
Ankush Jain00:25:30 - 00:25:50
And no one tells you. Right? Yeah. So it's like we don't need to live this this kind of persona of, like, we've got all of our shit together. Mhmm. Right? And and everything's perfect. And then, like, behind the scenes, like, oh, shit. I haven't got it all together and then feeling a fraud. It's just that that's life.
Ankush Jain00:25:50 - 00:26:43
You have days you feel good. You have days you feel bad. Right? Because our thinking changes moment to moment. That's got nothing to do with who we are or or or or, you know, our self worth. And then the the the other thing is a lot of people assume, well, if stuff doesn't make me feel good, right, like if money isn't gonna if more money isn't gonna make me feel good about myself, right, or or or a a better wife or a hotter girlfriend or whatever. Right? Then they'll say, well, what's the point of getting out of bed? Right? Like, what am I doing all this for? And what I've noticed is people assume that they will be less productive, less successful in the in the kind of material world if the if they kind of follow the path that I might be putting them on, but the opposite happens, right? The opposite happens because you get out of your way. Right?
Wayne Herring00:26:44 - 00:26:47
And you probably enjoy it more and find fulfillment.
Ankush Jain00:26:48 - 00:27:33
Absolutely. Right? Like, you like, just do a thought experiment. Let's take 2 business owners. Right? One of them believes that in order to be, you know, a valid, successful, worthy human being. They need to make as much money as possible. Right? Mhmm. And the other guy, he's just really happy and comfortable in his own skin, doesn't put too much on it, and has a just is doing it for fun. Right? And and, like, which one's gonna make more money, or can you see that the one who's having fun can make as much or if not more money than the other guy? Right? And he's not and he's less tempted to make short term decisions that are gonna benefit his profitability, but long term damages business.
Ankush Jain00:27:34 - 00:27:45
Right? Like, in various businesses, it might be the right thing to say to a to a customer, we're not gonna take your business because we're not right for you. And that lead to much more business for you down the line.
Wayne Herring00:27:45 - 00:28:34
In the long term. Right? Yep. Well, you bring you bring up a, you know, a a a topic that has a lot of energy around it, which is money and and things and the pursuit of The pursuit of money. And what I hear you saying when you I I like that. There's these 2 business owners, and one of them, all they can think about Is the money, the money, the money, and the other ones enjoying the work that they do and working hard. Right? But two two really different approaches. And one of the things that I've picked up on in your book and then other works that are similar is Money too is a really, a lot of thought and a lot of feelings and a lot of miss. I I can have a lot of misinterpretations and garbage going on around that, can't I?
Ankush Jain00:28:35 - 00:29:04
Absolutely. I I I was I I I'm working with a business owner at the moment, and, I mean, she's female. Right? So but but it applies just as much to men. And I was speaking to her recently, and she's re it's her and her business partner, and I used to coach her business partner who is a man. And they've grown their business from nothing, and it's like it's skyrocketed. And they're making more money than than either of them anticipated. Yeah. But they're working like dogs.
Ankush Jain00:29:04 - 00:29:32
Right? They're they're sped up. They're spending no time with their family. Right? And, and and we just had a conversation about it. And and what I I said to her was like, hey. What are you did you like, do you, like are you making enough? Like, did you plan she said, when we set out on our business, we never anticipate even making half of this. We're making more than double what we what was our highest kind of aspiration.
Wayne Herring00:29:32 - 00:29:32
Mhmm.
Ankush Jain00:29:32 - 00:29:51
So I said, so you kinda don't need any more then. Right? Like, you're making more than double than your highest aspiration. Well, well, I I I guess not. No. No. We don't. Right? And I said, what are you doing this for? And she said, well, you know, to provide for my for my family and and for my for my kids and for to have a good life. And I went, right.
Ankush Jain00:29:51 - 00:30:20
And and how much time are you spending with them? And she went, no. I'm working all the time. Right? And so we talked about, well, you don't need to do that. Right? But not that that will make her less money. I'm like, if you start taking more time out for yourself, right, will you be better placed to deliver a better service for your clients. She said, yeah. I mean, it's obvious. Right? It makes sense.
Ankush Jain00:30:20 - 00:31:02
I said, also, if you take some more time out, does that mean you can turn away some business because because you've got less time? Right? You can turn away the business you don't really want. Right? Does that make you more desirable to work with or less? And she went, well, I guess, more actually. I'll be more exclusive. And so we talked about it's like, it's not an either or. It's a win win. Right. She can have more time for her family. She can have a better sense of well-being, and she can make more money and work with the the kind of client she really wants to work with rather than being and but this all stems from misunderstandings.
Ankush Jain00:31:02 - 00:31:15
Right? This stems from thinking, I I can't let any money go. Money is really important. It's it's scarce, and I've gotta hold on to every single client, which is just not true.
Wayne Herring00:31:16 - 00:31:48
Well, it goes back. There's something you said about and I and I've heard this come up with people I work with, and it certainly comes up for me. It's it's, Like a fear that if I'm not under stress and driving, driving, driving, driving, then I'll lose my edge, and then I'll become complacent. That's a word that comes up a lot. Then I'll become complacent. And then, and then everything will, like, all crash down around me, and it'll all be done. It's it's easy to get on that thought train and and and have a hard time getting off
Ankush Jain00:31:49 - 00:32:08
of it. Right? And I always just say to people, don't trust me. Why would you trust me? It's your business. Right? The buck stops with you. Test it. Mhmm. Test it for yourself. And what I found is everyone that tests it, they it's not about me trying to convince them.
Ankush Jain00:32:08 - 00:32:33
They see it for themselves. I see it for myself in my business. When I'm running at a 100 miles an hour, I'm not doing that much better. I can make sometimes make money in the short run, but there's always a trade off, and other parts of my life suffer. And on the flip side, the the more that I'm slowed down, right, and the more I kind of realize, hey. It's all this stuff is not that important. It's a game. I can treat it like a game.
Ankush Jain00:32:34 - 00:32:41
I relax. Right? I get clearer in terms of where to spend my time in my business, and I make more money, and I enjoy myself better.
Wayne Herring00:32:42 - 00:33:17
You you just said it's a game. I really like that. Like, that I can that I can attach to, and I think some of the people who will listen to that Can attach can can work with that and use that. It's funny. Whenever I work with somebody who's very mindful, I, like, start watching my words, and I'm, like, almost Not for the sake of I don't wanna say the wrong thing to you, but I become more aware of, oh, there's thinking going on and there's, like, Judgments of myself and others going on. But the but the idea of a game, like like, life is a game. Having a business It's a game. It's a fun game to play.
Wayne Herring00:33:17 - 00:33:57
I get to get up. You know, I I I've it's one of those things I've caught myself and and corrected and worked through. I used to say, I I have to go see Bill. I I would lee I would leave home, and I would tell my wife, I have to go I have to go see Bill today. I have to go see this client today. And I and I've started to say, you know, I'll I that may come out, but then I'll fix it and Say, I get to go see them today, and that's the game that's like the game I choose to play, and it's fun. And building businesses is fun, and it's like creating a form of art. It's not this, like, heavy if it's a heavy burden, it just doesn't that I must do it doesn't go so well.
Wayne Herring00:33:57 - 00:33:59
So thanks for that. Playing a game.
Ankush Jain00:34:00 - 00:34:13
And and the the thing is with seeing it as a game, this isn't semantics. Right? This isn't as like, hey. See it like a game. And you're like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I've got the bills to pay, Wayne. Right? I've got bills to pay, Kush.
Ankush Jain00:34:13 - 00:34:52
This is like on a on a psychological level. If you see look. If you make a a $1,000,000 this year or you make $1,000 this year, right? That has no impact on your, on your feeling state. You can make $1,000,000 a there. And be stressed out, unhappy, have a terrible relationship, no, you you know, great relationship with your kid. Like, everything can be falling to to crap on the inside. Right? And you can make, like, $1,000 this year, and everything can be going great. Now you I'm not saying therefore make a 1,000.
Ankush Jain00:34:52 - 00:35:21
I'm saying there's no correlation, right, or there's no causation there. And so when you see and and I see this for myself. Right? Like, I wanna grow my business, you know, on on the level of the the business. But when I step back and say, look. Whatever the business does, I'm okay because my feelings aren't related to how well the business does, then I really get to see it as a game. Mhmm. Right? And do do you guys play, do you guys have a game over there, like a board game called Monopoly?
Wayne Herring00:35:22 - 00:35:23
Yeah. Sure.
Ankush Jain00:35:23 - 00:35:25
Right? It's like a famous board game. We used to play this
Wayne Herring00:35:25 - 00:35:29
as games. Buy hotels or properties and build houses and hotels. Sure.
Ankush Jain00:35:29 - 00:36:16
Right? So everyone's played Monopoly with the with the kid who gets pissed off and throws all the the thing because you take it too seriously. Right? And we do that in life. We all become that kid that we like take take our businesses so seriously because we it looks to us like the outcome is so important to how we feel. The outcome is really important. Right? And when we realize kind of what I'm pointing to, which is you're just feeling your your your mental activity just moment to moment, we get to relax and see it like it is a game. And the more we see it as a game, the the paradox is we play it more successfully. Right? And I've seen clients of mine who get this. They start getting promoted at work.
Ankush Jain00:36:16 - 00:36:26
Their businesses start making more money. Like it's it's not a case of, you know, be poor and happy. You don't wanna be rich and unhappy. No. It's it's like there's no correlation.
Wayne Herring00:36:28 - 00:37:26
You know, you just you you use a phrase, they get that. The the clients, they get that. And What it feels like in my experience has been working with people in for myself, I can get that in a moment, and my clients can get that, whatever that is in a moment. They can just all of a sudden See things differently, and then everything goes better. And as a coach, Working with people and facilitating mastermind groups, having grown up in, like, a a blue collar world with a coal mining grandfather, Sometimes it almost seems too easy. Like, the the work, I feel I feel that, This coaching stuff, like, maybe it's too easy. Maybe I need to make it harder. Maybe maybe I need to to to work harder and do more to be, worthy of my grandfather's approval or something.
Wayne Herring00:37:26 - 00:37:54
Like, we could go down, you know, roughly what it what it feels like. But it really is like, it's really hard to change or have insights or to get that, And yet it's really easy and can happen in a moment. And it also could be, like, it can be moment to moment too, can it? Sometimes, like, I can choose to see it, and then I can choose to ignore it and be miserable miserable for a while, and then I could see it again. Does that make sense? Comes and goes.
Ankush Jain00:37:54 - 00:38:30
Oh, yeah. Like, I don't wanna give anyone the wrong impression that, like, oh, I I live like this all the time and I get it. Like, I I see it and then I lose sight of it. Right? But for me, this is very much a journey. And the the the longer I've been, you know, exploring this, the easier it is for me to kind of bounce out a bit when I don't see it. And the the the easier it is I stay in it. And, you know, one of the things I mean, I'm I'm I'm sure it's the same, you know, with you, the work you do. You can have a conversation with someone for half an hour, and they can see something that can change their whole business.
Ankush Jain00:38:31 - 00:39:02
But it's also very different when someone works with you over a period of time that you really get to go deep and they see other things. It's it's not one's right or the other. It's it's different. And it's the same thing. Like, people can listen to this, have an insight from it, see something different, and show up differently, and that's all good. But that's also different from, you know, diving deeper. Now for me, I I do this professionally. So I've dived in deep for 8 years, and I've traveled all around the world, and I've read tons of stuff about it, and I do courses, and I get whatever.
Ankush Jain00:39:02 - 00:39:48
Most people don't need to do that to that level of detail. But what I also say to people is if you're interested, you know, go and explore this for yourself in whatever way makes sense to you because then you'll then you'll, then you'll see it for yourself, and there's, like, levels of depth. And so I've got I like I've got a client of mine from Europe who I've been working with for 5 years. And the reason we're working together for 5 years is not because it's taken 5 years for him to the what it is that he originally came to see me for. Right? It's like that has evolved over time. And for me, it's like like, the book is the book could be called a book of implications. And I keep seeing more implications of this in my own life and in the lives of my clients.
Wayne Herring00:39:50 - 00:40:56
Yeah. Yeah. That that makes sense. So what 1 I wanna ask you at least 1 question from the book and then tie in, you know, how People can get get a hold of you and and and reach out. But but another 1 more question comes up, and that is a lot of, The the way you said it, like, you you don't have to go that deep, but you can. This separating, Like, who I am from thought, feelings, you said it's 2 sides of the same coin, and then seeing how action doesn't necessarily I can make choices, doesn't have to follow my feelings, and it's it can be moment to moment, how I look at things, and whether it's a game or not. I get those things. A lot of my clients are business owners with, either you know, I have one that has a 100 employees and then so they have a team of managers, so Everybody is may maybe aware of all 100 employees, but most directly involved with a smaller group of 5 to Ten people that they coach, and they're coaching, and they're working with their teams.
Wayne Herring00:40:57 - 00:41:51
And and or I have small business owners who maybe have 3 employees total, but we all get a chance to once we see this and start separating the Like, who we are is not necessarily our thinking and feelings, and there's choices. Then we start I think we start seeing it in other people and those folks that we work with directly. And we we have to I I I we can't unsee it, but I don't I have to be careful with how I talk to them about it initially because if they haven't thought about it themselves and been on the journey, You know, I I that's thinking. Like, you're just thinking about that. It's and boy, and I've been guilty of doing this, like, you know, with my wife If we're, you know, I say things like, you don't you it's a choice whether you're offended or not, and she doesn't like that so much. Brilliant. Right? You're yeah. So don't say that.
Wayne Herring00:41:51 - 00:42:02
Nobody say don't say that. How how could An employer work with a a couple of key people to try to get them to just see a little bit of this and start down the path.
Ankush Jain00:42:03 - 00:42:26
Well, you know what? It's about seeing it for yourself. Right? So what I find is it's almost like a process. Someone I work with, they start seeing it for themselves, and at the beginning, they it happens a lot. They turn into a bit of an evangelist. Hey. That's just your thinking. That's just your thinking. And and, generally, people around them don't like that very much.
Ankush Jain00:42:26 - 00:42:46
Right? And often, they'll come back to me and say, hey. I wouldn't tell so and so it's their thinking. They didn't appreciate that. Mhmm. Right? Mhmm. And I said, yeah. I'm not surprised. Because when we start to really see that our our experience of life is created via thinking, and so is everyone else's.
Ankush Jain00:42:46 - 00:43:28
We also see that it looks really real to us. Right? Like, you this is why, you know, we're we're astounded by magicians, right, or illusionists. Like, they do stuff which just looks real. And we're like, how on earth did they do that? So if someone comes along like, if if you're really upset with your with your wife, right, because she said something. It looks in the moment now afterwards, after a while, when your mind settled down, maybe you'd flat on it, and you go, you know what? Yeah. Maybe I overreacted to that. But in the moment, if you're upset, that's real to you in the moment. So it really looks like it was down to what she said.
Ankush Jain00:43:29 - 00:43:59
Now especially if it's her who comes back and says, well, this has got nothing to do with me, you're upset. You can't hear that. Right? So this this understanding has given me a lot more compassion for people, right, including my wife, including, you know, my clients, including, you know, my friends, anyone. And so if if you're an employer and you've you've got people worth struggling. I mean, the 1st step is just acknowledging that their reality looks really real to them.
Wayne Herring00:43:59 - 00:44:15
And a lot of times what comes out is they're blaming Outside circumstances for why they didn't get something done or in sales. The reason they didn't make more telephone calls because Somebody rejected them, and it really felt terrible. You know, those are, like, waves that I can think of that it
Ankush Jain00:44:15 - 00:44:16
Right.
Wayne Herring00:44:16 - 00:44:18
Have practical applications.
Ankush Jain00:44:18 - 00:44:43
Right. And it's it's not even the words. I find it's more about where you're coming from. Like, some people think I'm this very soft, gentle coach. But the people who have been working with me know that I can be really direct. Right? And I find that I can kind of get away with saying certain things to my clients Mhmm. More because of where I'm coming from. It's like I care about you.
Ankush Jain00:44:44 - 00:44:48
Therefore, I can ask you, are you really full of shit right now?
Wayne Herring00:44:48 - 00:44:53
And they do feel that. They they can feel that you care. They certainly pick up on that vibe.
Ankush Jain00:44:54 - 00:45:43
Right? And this is the same for employers. Whereas if you don't have that same come from, right, if you don't have that same place coming from and you say to an employee, are you full of shit right now? They're gonna be really upset most likely. Right? It it it's probably not gonna go down well. So it's it's more about, like, are you coming from a place where you see that your employee is struggling, you really care for them, and you want the best for right? And and then you're gonna have, you know, then you're gonna find your own words. You you and you can explore this together. Like, someone says, well, you know, I I'm I'm I I couldn't make the sales calls because of this, this, and this. And and, you know, you might just I don't know. In the moment, you might just say, well, do you really see that? Does that look really true to you? And the employer might go, yeah.
Ankush Jain00:45:43 - 00:45:57
It looks really true to me. Okay? And then you can start exploring that. Go, okay. Well, something more about that. And how do you explain that your colleague seemed to have made the calls, right, and and you weren't able to do it? Or we
Wayne Herring00:45:57 - 00:46:03
go right back to the beginning where you said, has anybody ever felt like not getting out of bed and going to work in the morning?
Ankush Jain00:46:04 - 00:46:04
Right.
Wayne Herring00:46:04 - 00:46:45
And there's an example of Yeah. We know how to do it. We know how to push through that, so we just need to apply it over here. I wanna ask you 1 question from the book, Because I think it helps illustrate practically how this works with something that we all deal with. And the the chapter title is called anger and road rage. And so most of us have had the experience of some a hole, you know what, cutting us off in traffic And getting fired up, and we all have different reactions to that. But, you know, that's that's a great way to start thinking about the separation, I think, of thoughts, feelings. Can you just talk about that for a moment? Anger and road rage.
Ankush Jain00:46:45 - 00:47:12
Yeah. I I used to get road rage all the time. I mean, not badly. I didn't get out my car and stop beating people up. That, you know, I used to get really upset about other drivers. I'm like, for god, does he not know how to drive? Are you blind? Right? And, like every day, at least at least once or twice a day, like, I would get really angry driving in my car somewhere. And I didn't even realize it. And it looked to me like that was out of my control.
Ankush Jain00:47:12 - 00:47:15
Like, I was getting angry because of the other driver.
Wayne Herring00:47:15 - 00:47:16
Right.
Ankush Jain00:47:16 - 00:47:40
And then as I started learning this stuff, I I started realizing, like, no. The anger doesn't have anything to do with the driver. Like, the other driver does something. I have some thinking about what they've done, and that gets reflected. To some angry thinking gets reflected as anger in the moment. And the more I started to be open to that fact that, oh, it's my angry thinking. I kinda snapped out of it. I calmed down.
Ankush Jain00:47:41 - 00:47:52
And there's, like, again, different thought experiments you can do to prove this to yourself. Like, one of them is imagine someone's cut you off in traffic, right, and you're, like, super angry, then you realize it's your best mate.
Wayne Herring00:47:53 - 00:47:53
Right.
Ankush Jain00:47:53 - 00:48:29
Right? Like you you would immediately or most likely dissipate your anger and you're like, oh, you asshole. Right, you know, whatever. Or or or it's your mom. Right? Or, you know, your dad, like, or whoever. Right? You you can do these thought experiments with often and show that the same action could happen. But if we change 1 or 2 bits of information, you'd interpret that whole situation differently. Yeah. Right? And, you know, there's so many examples of where you know, certainly in the UK, people, you know, do crazy things in road rage incidents.
Ankush Jain00:48:29 - 00:48:32
They get out of their car. They they smash a window.
Wayne Herring00:48:32 - 00:48:32
Me too.
Ankush Jain00:48:32 - 00:49:05
Right? And they do do do all sorts of crazy stuff. And then they they go to to court over it, and they're ending up in front of a judge, and they're like, they've never had any prior convictions. They're a model citizen. Nothing ever and and when they asked him, like, hey. What happened? He's like, I don't know what came over me. Right? And there is this separation between our feeling state and who we are. Mhmm. And now it all it takes is now what I've got a colleague of mine who works in prisons in the US.
Ankush Jain00:49:05 - 00:49:37
And she says the only difference between her and and these, like, real I mean, it's a real high security prison. Right. The difference between her and the prisoners. The only difference is they've acted on their thinking, and she doesn't. Right? And especially when I'm with men, sometimes I'll ask a question. I'll say, how many people have ever had the thought about murdering someone? Right? Generally, with men, most people put the hand of at least once in your life, you've had a murderous thought. And I'm presuming, unless you're on the run or you've come out of jail, most people. I'm like, I'm presuming most of you haven't acted on that thought.
Ankush Jain00:49:37 - 00:50:03
And they're like, yeah. We haven't we've we've never killed anyone. So everybody knows on some level with certain things not to act on their thinking, not to take their anger seriously. And sometimes it might even be road rage. But there's areas of our life where we don't see that. Right? And if we didn't see it ever, we would be in the loony bin. Mhmm. Right? Like, we we would be locked away for our own good if we never saw the the difference.
Ankush Jain00:50:03 - 00:50:43
And in fact, there's there's some I remember having a guy at one of my men's retreats who was like he was a giant. Right? And this guy had come out of prison, and I started questioning, like, is this a good thing to have this guy here? Right? But he'd he'd he'd done a training program in the three principles, and it turned his life around. And, you know, he spoke for 2 hours. It was amazing. But one thing he said was, I used to live my life that if I had a thought, I needed to act on it. So he said if I had a thought, oh, I need to go and rob that petrol station or gas station as you guys would call it, he would do it. If it was like, I need to hit that person, he would hit them. And so his life was terrible because he end up in prison many times over.
Ankush Jain00:50:43 - 00:51:15
Now I'm guessing most of people listening don't do that, and therefore, you know, on not in prison. But there are areas of a life where we have a thought, and we act on it as if it's true. Right? Your spouse says something, and you're like, oh, that hits my button. I now need to defend myself or walk out or, you know, say some choice words or whatever. Right? Or, you know, for me, it was like emails. I get an email from some from a colleague, and it was like, you effing da da da.
Wayne Herring00:51:15 - 00:51:17
Actually, that's in all caps. Right?
Ankush Jain00:51:17 - 00:51:34
Right? Like but it but it's not. Nothing and and this I I I say this, as a man, gives us our power back. Mhmm. Right? Because then no one like, you become much stronger, more powerful because no one has the ability to put feelings in you. You you start seeing it self generated.
Wayne Herring00:51:36 - 00:52:29
That's great. So we're getting close to the end of time, and I wanna be respectful of that because it's been wonderful, and I know I've benefited just by the conversation. So self kind of selfishly, thank you, for coming. I you you run some, men's retreats in the UK where you, like, run a castle, and, of course, right now, we're not doing as much traveling, but we will again. And and you do these immersive retreats. I think it'd be so cool if, one of my guys, you know, flew To Europe and and went to a castle with you and, like, you got to have an experience like what you're describing with the gentleman who came and shared about How how things had changed after studying the 3 principles. So so we're gonna stay connected, and I wanna connect my community with you. How can how can people reach out to you? Is there anything that you wanna, share that I should attach in in show notes and stuff, etcetera.
Ankush Jain00:52:30 - 00:52:50
So, the the best way for people to get hold of me is via my website, which is Ankush Jain, a n k u s h j a I n, n.co.uk. And at the moment, there's a bit you can click on, which is men, and there's a bunch of videos where I'm coaching men. So peep if people are interested and they wanna the more of that. They can they can they can do that.
Wayne Herring00:52:51 - 00:52:56
Okay. That's awesome. Thanks. Well, on Ankush, jane dotco.uk.
Ankush Jain00:52:57 - 00:52:58
Correct.
Wayne Herring00:52:58 - 00:53:01
Very good. Thanks so much, Ankush.
Ankush Jain00:53:02 - 00:53:04
Well, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed this conversation.
Wayne Herring00:53:05 - 00:53:22
Yeah. You're welcome. Thank you for tuning in to the Business Builder Wave podcast. If this episode spoke to you, click that subscribe button and share it with a friend. That's how this message gets out into the world. If it is helpful for us to have a short conversation, I'd love to do that. Send me an email at

00:00 Anakush speaks about 3 life-changing principles.

04:48 Learning from different backgrounds; applying principles universally.

07:58 Man has enlightenment experience contradicting psychologist's knowledge.

10:21 Understanding our thinking creates our experiences, powerful.

15:28 Blue-collar workers find enlightenment and new perspective.

18:59 Men often secretly judge themselves harshly, unnecessarily.

21:53 Silent struggles of successful men discussed.

25:50 Thinking changes, self-worth not determined by feelings.

27:45 Misinterpretations and feelings around the pursuit of money.

32:42 Life, business - it's all a game.

33:17 Changing "have to" to "get to" for positivity.

39:02 Explore topics thoroughly and embrace personal understanding.

39:50 Discussing thoughts, feelings, and actions in coaching.

44:54 Employer-employee communication requires empathy and understanding.

49:05 Woman compares herself to prisoners regarding thoughts.

51:36 Close to end of time, thankful for conversation.

1. What are your thoughts on the idea that material success does not necessarily lead to happiness and fulfillment? How might this concept apply to your own life or business experiences?
2. How can the understanding of the inside-out nature of experience influence decision-making and problem-solving in a business context? Can you share any examples of this from your own professional life?
3. In what ways can the principles of empathy and understanding mental activity positively impact workplace dynamics and employee management? Have you encountered similar situations in your career and how did you handle them?
4. How do you think the concept of separating feeling states from actions can lead to personal empowerment and improved relationships, both in a professional and personal context? Can you relate this to any specific instances in your own life?
5. What are your thoughts on the idea that self-awareness and control over one's thoughts and feelings can lead to a sense of empowerment and greater success? Can you provide examples of how this has played out in your career or personal life?
6. How do you view the concept of understanding and addressing struggles with openness and empathy in the workplace, as opposed to accusations or blame? Can you recall any specific instances where this approach has made a difference in your professional interactions?
7. How can the pursuit of money sometimes lead to sacrifices in personal and family time, and what impact does this have on overall well-being and work-life balance? Have you experienced similar challenges in your own professional journey?
8. How might the reluctance to openly discuss inner struggles and self-judgment affect individuals' effectiveness and success in their careers and personal lives? Have you ever faced challenges related to this issue?
9. Ankush Jain emphasizes the evolving nature of the coaching methodology and the continual journey of understanding the subject. How do you think this approach applies to ongoing personal and professional development in a business setting?
10. Based on the conversation about the tragic suicide of a seemingly successful individual, what are your thoughts on the difficulties men face in expressing inner struggles and the need to create a supportive environment for discussing mental health and personal challenges in the workplace?